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Stone Demon - At any cost, the mana trade makes this spell either too strong or too weak.

As is, Stone Demon isn't very effective because it has little utility beyond the mana trade (which is generally not favorable). It costs 80 mana to cast, but only 50 to destroy with a quick Spit double tap.

I believe a slight modification to how it works would make it much more useful, fun and interesting to counter:

Instead of letting the Demon be destroyed by attacking it:
1) make it invincible,
2) give it a fixed number of projectiles to fire,
3) have it disappear on its own when it runs out.

Also add some big green glowing gems to the statue's front side equal to the number of projectiles it has left so it's clear to everyone how long it will last.

In this way, it can't be trivially negated by shooting it and the opposing player needs to find a clever way to counter or deal with it (dodging, avoiding, casting Twins, reflecting, absorbing, etc.) Using Stone Demon as a distraction or area denial becomes much more potent because it remains a threat until all of its projectiles have been exhausted.

This frees you up to tune its cost without the mana trade being a factor.


  • edited January 2017
    That's an interesting idea. I've used Demon a lot and gotten really used to it, so to get a discussion going, here are some things I like about Demon having health:
    -It forces your opponent to engage with it to get rid of it (or spend at least 70 mana on Twins), which creates opportunities for you to attack
    -You're punished for using it carelessly and casting it right in front of someone who can immediately destroy it, which makes it one of the more strategic spells
    -It's not very useful unless you defend it, so running/hiding and letting Demon do your dirty work is ineffective against good players
  • edited January 2017
    After lots of experience in 1.1.0x with Demon, I don't think it needs any changes other than tweaking its health to work well, be balanced, and be one of the most interesting spells. But finding the right HP is going to be like threading a needle.

    I know 1.1.1 has only been out for a day, but now that Demon has 50 HP, I think it could easily become the new #1 spell and will definitely be abused.

    To kill Demon in 1.1.1:
    With 50 HP and doing 10 damage
    2 Lightnings (120 mana)
    5 Twins (105 mana with luck)
    17 Hails (90 mana with luck)
    2 Meteors (80 mana)
    2 Spikes (80 mana)
    3 Spits (75 mana)
    2 Fists (60 mana if at least 7/10 hit)
    5 Shields (50+ mana)

    For comparision, in 1.1.04:
    With 35 HP and doing 12 damage
    2 Meteors (80 mana)
    2 Spikes (80 mana)
    3 Twins (70 mana with luck)
    14 Hails (70 mana with luck)
    1 Lightning (50 mana)
    2 Spits (50 mana)
    3 Shields (30+ mana)
    1 Fist (30 mana but only if 4 hit)

    I'd argue for 40 HP and keeping its damage at 10 (which wouldn't be very different to how it was in 1.1.04, but I think it was already pretty well balanced, it was just a little to cheap to kill)
    2 Meteors (80 mana)
    2 Spikes (80 mana)
    3 Spits (75 mana)
    4 Twins (70 mana with luck)
    14 Hails (70 mana with luck)
    1 Lightning (60 mana)
    4 Shields (40+ mana)
    1 Fist (30 mana but only if all 5 hit)
  • Thanks for your input @OccyRing, it makes a lot of sense. I think looking at it the way you just described can be good but also a bit misleading. Experienced players will for example never use two Lightning strikes to destroy a Demon, rather a combination of a strong and weaker spell. 40 does sound like a good number though so we'll try it out at the office.

    Also a side note: I'd argue that Lightning Strike doesn't cost 60 mana since the charge cost is regenerated during the time it takes to fully charge ;)
  • edited January 2017
    @hanlid - Yeah we had a long back and forth about this in discord actually haha... My argument was that since mana is generally a race between you and your opponent it doesn't matter that it keeps generating while you're charging because you're going to have 60 less mana than your opponent does at the end of it. Generally irrelevant if your mana is full though, but if you're firing it over and over or in the middle of a series of other spells then I think it's better to consider it 60 since you'll be able to fire it once for every 2 fists your opponent fires back.

    My favorite anti-demon so far is 1 fist + 1 shield for ~40+ mana, swift and cheap.
  • edited January 2017
    @hanlid, I think the most effective way to kill the 50 HP Demon is with 1 Shield + 1 charged Fist (but this requires being close). I actually traded the much cheaper Spit for Lightning in one of my loadouts because Lightning + Shield handles Demon better than Spit (or Spit + Shield). Another thing to consider with Demon is that if you don't have Shield, you'll have to teleport out of the way to avoid damage, which costs an additional 20.

    Lowering its health to 40 would make it much weaker since one Lightning or one close, charged Fist could take it out, but that would make casting Demon more strategic. You'd either have to cast the Demon where they can't see it, or wait until they're low on mana (or ideally both) for it to be effective.

    Regarding Lightning, the fact that you regenerate Lightning's initial cost of 10 during the charge makes it really interesting, and that was a really clever solution to excessive bluffing. In practice, I believe it still costs 50 when you start with full mana, but costs 60 if you start with less than 90 mana (since that 10 mana would have regenerated if you'd used any other spell) .... but it's a wash if mana didn't regenerate when Lightning was charging in previous patches (but I don't remember if that was the case).
  • @jcwilk Haha well okay then. Hope you don't find it too bad after the update anyway.

    @OccyRing No matter how you deal with the Demon, my point was the best way was a combination of spells :) Perhaps the best value would be 40 hp, time will tell ;)
  • @hanlid - Not at all! I think it's a great improvement so far. 60 seemed a bit too high at first but it's a powerful spell and it hasn't really bothered me.

    Personally I think I'm leaning towards around 45hp for the demon currently... 40 is too low I think because one fist or one lightning can take it down. With 45 you can at least do shield, fist, fist vs 45 which is only 60 mana if you don't have fist+shield. But yeah, too early I guess.
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